138: Keith McCandless

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Joe Krebs speaks Keith McCandless about the power of Liberating Structures. We talked about the time leading up to his famous book about Faciliation, which he co-authored with Henri Lipmanowicz. We talked about a few of the 33 patterns in his book but also touched on new ones, that will make it into the next book.

Transcript:

Joe Krebs 0:10

Agile FM radio for the Agile community, www agile.fm. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Agile FM today, I have a guest here with me. Probably, I would say probably everybody in the Agile community knows probably everybody has a book. In their hands. Every facilitator has a book into hands from Keith McCandless from the liberating structures is what is today with me. And we're going to talk about liberating structures in the book. But we also want to talk about liberating structures beyond the book. But before we get started, welcome to the podcast Keith.

Keith McCandless 0:53

Thanks, Joe. Excited to be here.

Joe Krebs 0:55

That is awesome. Yeah, I have to say this book was written also by Henry Lipmanowicz . So this co authored this book, anybody knows the surprising power of liberating structures? I think you guys have sold so many books. I think you're in direct competition with Harry Potter. Is that?

Keith McCandless 1:16

You? I like your dreaminess, Joe. There are very few books. I mean, yeah, it's sold. Well, it has it has in a in an era when people I'm not sure they read books anymore. But

Joe Krebs 1:30

yeah, that was 2014. And the reason I'm saying that is like everywhere I go, when I talk to people, not only the word liberating structures, everybody has an immediate reaction to it positive, obviously. But also people actually have the book and they're using the liberating structures. And as obviously, that was the that was the intent. So first and foremost, thank you for making these 33 patterns available to the community. I think they really changed the way of how people like Scrum Masters agile culture is probably listening to an episode here on agile FM. But actually more than that facilitators around the world in any kind of way, or shape doesn't have to be agile would really benefit from that. So thanks for doing this guys. Very good work.

Keith McCandless 2:18

You're You're welcome. And I love it that you use the word patterns. Because they're, they're simpler than a process. And they're more fun than an icebreaker. Yes, right. So what is that? Where did they even come from? Like, I think that's partly why they've spread a bit is they? They're not cumbersome, like a process. But they're as much serious fun as you can have. So that was a hope we had, although I've got to say the spread of the work? Well, first and foremost started with Agile people. It really did. First ones to catch on to it, and it keeps spreading,

Joe Krebs 3:09

keep spreading, keep spreading. Yeah, I'm not I'm not surprised somebody from the Agile community that started they are really to catch on, right? Because of obviously autonomous teams, and how do we get creative ideas out on teams? So it's, I think it's a great, great connection, I want to take you just for a moment here to the time before 2014, before you guys released the book, obviously, you have been in this field of learning and education and facilitation for decades right? So how did this all if you just want to take the listeners here through the journey of you know, obviously we're holding a book in their hands, but why publishing it? And what was what was the what was the trigger of saying like, let's let's write about this? And more importantly, why 33?

Keith McCandless 3:59

Yeah. Well, two things were going on. I was working in organizations, as a consultant, and trying to solve problems that weren't being solved. And they were kind of fundamental things. Seemingly, we hit limits to the way to the way everybody organized. And partly it was the relationship between the people doing the work their managers and their bosses and their executives is a fundamental limit. And so I had a variety of clients. And when I met Henry, we started to share clients and develop field work to address really the limits of what current organizing theory and practice was. Right and this was 20 years ago. So we did 10 years of work in the field before we published, of testing these things, trying to get them as simple the minimum specified in each one that we could. And we really didn't know, we were doing research for a book. The only reason there's a book is our clients told us, you've got to kept telling us, you've got to write it, you got to write it down. Yeah. And so there were a bunch of flimsy work, workbooks, in different languages were working internationally. And so we had a flimsy workbook. Number one in Brazil, one of the places we started, and then that was Portuguese. And then there was a Spanish one, and then there was a French one. And so the need the clients asking for, like, write it down, and our, whatever perfectionist tendencies we had. We didn't like the quality of the stuff we were doing, we had to slowly get rid of all of the pieces that weren't critical to making the structures work. And eventually, that resulted in in us finding a good editor. And neither of us are natural mean, we had to work on the writing part. But it got published. Yeah.

Joe Krebs 6:27

We are very happy about this. When I saw the, when I saw the book, obviously, when it was published back then, there was this one moment I had, and, you know, take it down a story of mine quick, where I knew the book was extremely powerful. Because until the book was published, I used in my own trainings and working with clients that there was this one time, it's like, you know, where I moved groups from one flip chart to the next flip chart, and they collaborated this way. And there was always an interesting activity of people were like, it took me a little time to explain it, and people got into it. But then the energy level in the room increased significantly every time I did this. And one time, there was a group of executives and those executives, they were stunned. They were like, wow, what is happening? This is so engaging. And when I saw your book, it was the shift and share. I you know, I didn't had a name. And when I saw that, I was like, this is powerful. I need to know the other 32. Because I knew there was so much power in so how did you guys decide on on those 33? What is that? Were you really? I mean, I could imagine at that time, he could have said it could have been 34? It could have been 35? Why did you draw the line? Did you feel like this was enough of a catalog to say let's go live?

Keith McCandless 7:47

Well, it represents the repertoire of our, of our joint practice. So those were things that we regularly used. And we're confident anybody could generate, surprisingly reliable results. So reliably, you're gonna get delightful surprises, like that group of leaders who are going like, where did this energy come from? . Well, well, that happens every time with every each of those 33 There will be a, a surprising amount of momentum and insight and action generated. And so those were the ones we were confident about that addressed the concerns of I'm gonna say mostly big organizations that operated across borders. And once we published realized, Oh, my, there's lots of other domains and contexts in which people are operating that they could use the same approaches. But the limits to the repertoire and our decisions about it was what did we know how to do? And what did we actually feel test to the point where it could reliably surprise? .

Keith McCandless 9:15

that was kind of the test, the other one Joe, that we mentioned a little bit earlier is Is it close to being simple enough? Easy to learn that after one experience that maybe someone else led as a facilitator or an Agile coach or a scrum master, if they didn't let it once? Could somebody in that group who never thought of themselves in that way, as a facilitator, could pick it up and use it in their local context? Right, so if that didn't if that wasn't possible, it started to drop off the list of the repertoire.

Joe Krebs 9:57

Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's a it's very powerful. and it makes it so universally applicable, right? Because it is something that is not only something specific for financial facilitation, let's say in a financial sector or in something else, it's something for everyone right to be shared and across the board. That's, that is super insightful. This journey doesn't end there. Right after those 33 Only because the book is published, the movement is continuing. And I do want to say before we explore some of those techniques, somebody who is possibly I cannot even imagine this but not familiar with liberating structures. Gone are the days where people sit around the table and somebody flips PowerPoint slides. Right? So I think that is that is the idea behind this, like, how can we survive in a creative, innovative world that changes frequently without sourcing the the energy and the opinions for many people at the same time. So I think what you guys are doing has a real price tag next to it for organizations.

Keith McCandless 11:04

If only if only Joe, if only those presentations were were done with if only everybody's intelligence was unleashed, if your own and then you made it, everything you did unleashed everybody else's around you. If only that was true. That's not my experience. And so there's a lot more to do. Yeah. And I think the pandemic opens some doors for people, but also closed quite a few. In regard to how open can we make this? How flexible can we be about the future so that all of the worry about the stability of the organization can either close doors or open doors. And I've seen more extreme versions of both over the last few years, more openness to including every voice in shaping what happens next. That's basically what liberating structures do they make it practical, to literally include every voice in shaping your next step? And that's scares the hell out of some people. And and it's new territory. So I'm, I know that we need to do it like you I feel the passion for doing it now and everybody should be doing and why aren't they doing it? I feel that but I also know it's a it's a transition that's going to take take a while, a while longer than I want to wait. But

Joe Krebs 12:52

what's interesting about the leader example, some, you know, I mentioned earlier, I've noticed with liberating structures is that leaders and executives, they like the energy, the liberating structures are producing, but they're not part of the activity itself, which is very often interesting, right? So they're more like bystanders or observers or they, they, you know, they they support liberating structures, obviously, or not, you know, maybe not even know about. Okay, great resolves the teams are producing with these techniques, but they're not part of it. So I myself, like in a training environment, I do have the opportunity to bring them in through a training course. But I'm not sure how many, you know, facilitations take place on leadership. Now, I do have to say my view is agile. So maybe outside of the Agile space, there is more of that. But I that's that's one of the shortcomings I have seen that it hasn't really broken through the to the entire organization is more limited to the teams. Is that something you you observe as well.

Keith McCandless 13:55

But well, I'm not always the nicest person. Usually I try. And I don't blame leaders for the situation. But they've gotten themselves the way organizing has been taught and learned. They're busy people, they want things simplified. And so when I'm not nice, we will have just and I often work with leadership groups. And the first step is always let's get all the other people that we possibly can that usually are not in the strategic planning session. Let's say that's what it is. And we will have just mapped I know this is audio but I'm going to move my hands anyway. On the Eco cycle, the whole portfolio of activities and maybe even the relation the strategic relationships, where are they in a birth maturity? Great of this pretty, you know, you got to get that relationship creatively destroyed or or nascent, you know, just just stating not formed yet. We've got the whole thing up there. And we may also have done a critical uncertainties where we look at the four surprisingly, different futures. And then we look again at this portfolio and where all where we are strategically. And I will, I have never been in a situation where that wasn't very new information for all the organizational leaders for the first time, they've seen where all their stuff is. And they see that the the future operating environments for the evolution or adaptability of those things? They haven't really thought about it. Yeah, how are we going to operate our portfolio. In a future that's not predictable, but you know, within a range, it's not predictable. And so because they've been isolated from all the work and where all the work is done, that's a confusing moment. And what I like to do is bring them all in front of the visual chart, you know, here's the Eco cycle, and here's the critical uncertainties we face and go, you knew that right? And, like, I, and they'll kind of look through the site or look down, and, you know, we're just all have a good laugh. Because that's, that's something that arises out of doing the work, and they've never had the opportunity to do the work, because they haven't included everybody. And they don't know how, yeah, as. And so for me, the perspective over time, is we're learning how to include more voices to shape the future in a very volatile. environment. And that's gonna, you know, I wish we all knew how to do that already. But we're, we don't, and we're learning how to do it. And I include myself in there, how do you do that in a way that it gets repeated by everybody in the organization continuously. So that the goals and strategies are being adapted.

Joe Krebs 17:30

This must be an interesting finding for you, like just based on your example, right? When you do work with a leadership team, and in terms of trust, right, if somebody does not know that, right, and the technique, eco cycle, why brought this to surface, and all of a sudden is like, this is like a vulnerable point for for a person, or as a group, right. But each individual, it requires a lot of trust, it's like, I did not know that we did not know that as a group. So on a leadership that shakes things up a little bit for for the group, right? It's like, there's a lot of things we do not know, when we would have gone down that path. And, you know, so that must be a very powerful moment to to be in for you as a facilitator.

Keith McCandless 18:15

Well, I hope, you know, when you're a consultant, you're there for a while you develop trust with the client, and I do my best to be loving and provocative. At the same time, and that's support for the leader. Ah, they need it. They needed that's when they needed the most and that it's just too easy to blame them for something that isn't happening. But structurally, because attention to the way in which we work, the PowerPoint presentation, the I'm the boss, update me, tell me what I want to know about what's happening, that doesn't work, brainstorming, let's get a few people who are smart and have them figured out those or, or just open it up and have anybody, you know, fight it out over what it should be. Those all generate disappointing results. So until liberating structures are routinely routinely used. And the first people I've seen it, make it sort of routine are Scrum Masters, you know, in with their teams, they have some autonomy over there teams, they can put in regular practice some of the structures that make it possible to some of the time, shape next steps with every voice. Yeah,

Joe Krebs 19:42

so it's interesting, right? And some of those 33 patterns are I would call them in not in a in a powerful way, but just in terms of executing them like a 1,2,4,all relatively brief, quick, powerful technique. I use it all the time. But some others like the Eco cycle, or the open space, you know, conversation, these are longer or more elaborate in terms of time commitment, right? It's still the same powerful tool. But it's interesting also, that these liberating structures are tied together, they're not like a single thing where you can use them together can build like a strategy of facilitation, depending on your needs. So so they defined together so it's for everybody who's, again, not familiar with this work is some of those techniques are timewise very brief, like my shifting share too the brief, or it could be a brief technique. But some are, like open space could be three days. So

Keith McCandless 20:43

yeah. The good news is that the 33, and the ones developed since we wrote the book, share a DNA. So there's five design elements that are part of every one. So once you learn a few of them, you understand a micro structure that distributes control, to everybody, to the people closest to the work. So once you've, you have a handful in your personal repertoire, the rest aren't that complicated. And even the most like the ones you mentioned, that take longer, eco cycle, if you've seen somebody use it, it's pretty easy to copy what they've done. So I tell new users, new people who are going to be introducing them, just know, don't get nervous, but the people you work with, they'll copy exactly what you do. So don't screw up. They don't, you know, because that's what they know its power, it's gonna be powerful. It's gonna be you're gonna get a new view, let's say it's eco cycle, you're gonna get a fresh dynamic view of where all of your activities all of your could be your, your products, or your, you know, all of the software you're developing, which which ones are, are already productive, which ones are just ideas, gestating what which ones do you need to put an end to because they're stale in there. So know that it will be powerful, and do your best when you try them? To do a good job with them. And some I can say that and then say they're also forgiving, right? You read the book and started doing 1,2,4 All? All probably Are you already did shift and share? Yeah. Now you had a little more detail maybe about something about how it could be done. And you just did it? Yep. So I recommend once you have a few under your belt, one of the things I think we did, added to the world was the the micro structure, what is the structure of distributed control? What are the five design elements and the fact that the whole repertoire shares that makes them different than individual methods that you can tap makes them a repertory interrelated repertoire that helps you solve complex problems? Yeah.

Joe Krebs 23:29

Yeah. So you mentioned earlier that the time to the release of the book, there was like this 10 year roughly time period where you guys, you know, filtered the material selected and defined, and most importantly, wrote about it. Now, since the release. There's another 10 year period right now, almost what we're looking at a similar time period. And you already mentioned, there are some liberating structures. They came after the book was published. So they are currently in the application and the testing, I don't know what kind of terms you guys are using, but basically in the field and being applied. And basically some of them will make the next book the website, whatever is in the, in the making a two things that stood out like one of them is Mad Tea. Right? I think that was one. So just to give the listeners here, a little bit of sense, this is one that goes beyond the 33 that is already some field tested right now. There's people that can engage with you in a Slack community, submit their own liberating structures, I myself will probably submit something to you guys, I have an idea. And there is the strategy not working and not with a KNOT. Tell us a little bit about maybe this one. I think it relates to Scrum Masters and we just mentioned how Scrum Masters relate very well to the liberating structures. So this might be a really good one beyond the book. Tell us a little bit about the strategy knot working and how could this be useful for Scrum Masters and agile coaches?

Keith McCandless 25:06

Yeah, so in this 10 year period, in between one thing, one liberating structure that really appealed to Scrum Masters was called purpose to purpose to practice. And there's five elements, and it's very much related to any project. So for, for me, if I have people proposing things to do that, or projects, I need them to answer the five questions and purpose to practice. So that's purpose, principles, participants, structure, and then what are you going to do practice? And if they can articulate that? Okay. You've thought it through? That's good. That's perfect for a project. But one of the limits was, okay, well, what about how all the projects fit together? What about the larger strategic context in which you're operating? Which is bigger than, and so strategy knot working? Includes it's kind of like a purpose to practice where different liberating structures are tapped. It also starts with purpose, but immediately goes to principles, like what are all the things we've learned from practice that we must never do again? Or always do? And then there's another second section that's different about wicked questions. What's the impossible truths? What two things are so true about the complex situation we face? That are undeniable, but we have to address both of them to make progress. Like how can we be an integrated organization and have autonomy in each part? How can we be a whole and a part? It's both integrated and autonomous? Oh, wow. And any strategy that you can get autonomy and integrated integration, that's a really that's a strategy is, is well worth it. And so the strategy knot working isn't a lot more elaborate, detailed way of formulating strategy beyond projects. And that became clear in the 10 year period in between. And so far, we've been doing in LS slack. And we've been doing prototyping, different people in very different domains have been trying it out. And there's some real challenging challenges to making that simple enough. So it hasn't. It's progressed, a lot of people are using it now. But it's not close to being in the repertoire in the next book. But it's well, it's worth worth it. But it doesn't fit my my, the need for easily copied by a new user.

Joe Krebs 28:20

Yeah. But there are others in in in the field right now as well. So this is not only one right. So there are several things going on right now. So yeah, you're back into selection process, like which one would make good candidate for? For the next, for the next book, I think you said which was kind of a reveal,

Keith McCandless 28:39

not promising. Next book. As an author, I think, you know, you don't want to make promises, because books are hard. Books are hard.

Joe Krebs 28:51

How did because your book release was 2014, before the pandemic. And obviously, that was not something you guys could have foreseen. That was coming in 2019? Was it 2019? And how did that change? The liberating structures like movement or your view on the liberating structures? Because I mean, there were lots of facilitators and trainers were looking at this. It's like, well, usually I will do a 1,2,4,all in my training right now. But now, how do I do this online? Or how do I work with a class? It's distributed and remote, and creativity sparked everywhere left and right, which is great. But how do you feel about that? And what were the insights like very specific to the pandemic and the impact on the liberating structures?

Keith McCandless 29:41

Well, I'm going to mention two things. One is the very first word when Henry and I felt we needed to prove liberating structures were productive was on superbugs and hospitals. I don't know if you know that but we we really hard problem But the answers needed to come in a distributed way from everyone. There were there were not single answers, we knew a few things that were effective. But really, you had to include every voice to solve the problem. And we're able to do great things. So the pandemic, first of all, was, Oh, my liberating structures are a great fit. We need distributed solutions, and didn't really get them for a variety of reasons. So that was hard. But within a month, I'd say on primarily on Slack, but the global liberating structures community, we who are agile folks, but academic, you name it, um, everybody was in there. The entire repertoire was converted to online, functional online, you know, things that could work that were not face to face that were great. Mostly zoom, but multiple platforms, everybody was trying things and sharing their information. And, and so for me, it was breathtaking to see what a large, diverse community with loose connections to one another very loose, could instantly adapt the whole repertoire. I mean, 98% of the repertoire got adapted. And then the other big change the pandemic, because it was online all of a sudden accessibility like, Okay, you're talking about, including every voice? Hmm. Well, a lot more voices could show up and a lot more attention to accessibility. The online platforms got refined, well, what do you mean, what if people can't hear? What if they can't see what if all of these things deepened? The degree to which liberating structures could include all or at least many more voices in shaping what happens next? So that was it opened new communities, and it opened the depth of what, including all voices means for me? Yeah, at same time in the US, you're in the US, like, social justice became pretty big deal. So people who have four generation has been excluded. Were showing up. We could reach them there, they could reach us more easily. So it's a frothy, exciting mix, Joe, of things that happened, and I'm just touching on a couple. And probably the last thing is the lot losses associated with the pandemic, what did you lose as a result of the pandemic? And so quite a bit more sensitivity to attention to and sensitivity to what has been lost? And how people can show up when they're experiencing some amount of grief or, or going through a transition? And so how do you do that and get the work? How do you attend to people's basic needs? And get some things done? Yeah. So that's a huge set of insights associated with that. So that's more than an Atmore. It was a good question. So I gave you a rambling answer.

Joe Krebs 33:39

Surprising power, right?

Keith McCandless 33:42

It's, I think I'm the first one surprised every time. Yeah, I think. But yeah, good.

Joe Krebs 33:50

So the thing is, I the reason I was asking like in the book, there's a lot of photography, from like actual events, examples on the website liberating structures, you see an actual photograph of the the liberating structure in action. And they are in person, right. So when you see even on the photos, you get the energy. And sometimes there is not a direct translation, but a work around, or it might work or with a different tool. And the creativity that came out of the community, as you said, is obviously fantastic to you know, to take the book and say like, Hey, this works in person, but now we have ways of doing this online. This is really, there wasn't really a very good conversation here Keith that I really really loved. Talking about liberating structures with you and thankful you took the time. We talked a little bit about the past. We talked a little bit about the book. And most importantly, we talked a little bit about the future of what's happening next people can get in touch with you through liberatingstructures.com If they want to submit or go to that slack channel and you know we talked about and yeah, I just I think Everybody's hungry for part two. And there's more to come. And I think, you know, the community can take more. No worries.

Keith McCandless 35:10

Well, I've got to tell you, I'm waiting. I'm putting on my schedule. When When will Joe send his idea for the new liberating structure? Soon? Yeah. Yeah. No, it's

Joe Krebs 35:27

it's an open invitation for submitting ideas. I did not know. So I will take advantage of that and share something and and see if it's, if it's something that is applicable to a broader domain.

Keith McCandless 35:41

Yeah. Good. Thank you. Yeah. And I appreciate the invitation to join you on the Convo Yeah, delightful, and it's nice to get to know you better.

Joe Krebs 35:53

Thank you for listening to Agile FM, the radio for the Agile community. I'm your host Joe Krebs. If you're interested in more programming and additional podcasts, please go to www agile.fm. Talk to you soon.